[tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics

Virgil Griffith i at virgil.gr
Wed Oct 21 00:59:39 UTC 2015 

Fleshing out your analogy. What if said small New Hampshire town's police
dept wanted to run a Tor relay and whistle blowing site, and then wanted to
network with the Tor-teachers community to better teach their citizens how
to safely use their new whistle-blowing site?

Do we help the NH police dept? Should they excluded from this space/list?
Would they be allowed to attend the Tor meeting to share what they learned
about teaching Tor to local New Hampshirians?

If you think this is outlandish, I don't think it's beyond the pale to get
see like this done in Singapore.

-V
On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 06:20 Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net> wrote:

> Virgil Griffith:
> >> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies?
> >> The police? The ISPs? The advertisers? Eric Schmidt?
> >> Let them be excluded.
> >
> > I claim that, when teaching Tor in East Asia we emphasized
> > pro-whistleblowing (which local govts and police support) over
> > pro-democracy, Tor becomes a technology The Man could get behind,
> > encourage, and even teach.
> >
> > Putting aside questions of whether The Man is liked, given the vast
> numbers
> > of people living in these jurisdictions (not to the mention the chance to
> > drastically expand the anonymity set!), I vote, on purely pragmatic
> > grounds, to include the police, the ISPs, etc.
> >
>
>
> Wellllllll, that's why I said "let them be excluded", because what I
> meant is that if our political language includes critiques of power and
> that gives them sad fee-fees, I really don't care. But I agree that it
> can be tactically useful to educate the police about Tor. Not just for
> expanding the anonymity set, but making it easier to get support for Tor
> in the wider community. Like when you want to run a Tor relay in a small
> New Hampshire town, and you don't want the police to get all upset about
> it. :)
>
> However, let me be clear -- that should be done PUBLICLY. Closed door
> meetings with any of these adversaries is extremely sketchy and is
> damaging to the trust of the Tor community.
>
> Also, let me be doubly clear: fuck the police.
>
> ACAB,
>
> Alison
>
>
> > -V
> > On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 02:03 Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the subject
> >> line so that we know what they're responding to.
> >>
> >> kbaegis:
> >>> Okay Alison.  Fine.  I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm
> not
> >>> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from TOR.
> >>> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of
> whoever
> >>> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest.
> >>>
> >>> I'll message you directly.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Stephen
> >>
> >> I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named
> >> those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we
> >> say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not
> >> fallacious. I think we simply disagree.
> >>
> >> I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should
> >> conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not
> >> want to exclude politics from the discussion.
> >>
> >> Alison
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
> >>>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to
> >>>>      tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>
> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>>
> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>>      tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>
> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>>>      tor-teachers-owner at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>
> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >>>> than "Re: Contents of tor-teachers digest..."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Today's Topics:
> >>>>
> >>>>    1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)
> >>>>    2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)
> >>>>    3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)
> >>>>    4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)
> >>>>    5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 1
> >>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000
> >>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
> >>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
> >>>> Message-ID: <56265033.6040800 at riseup.net>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>
> >>>> Nathan of Guardian:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to all
> be
> >>>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different
> backgrounds,
> >> and
> >>>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is
> >>>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into the
> >> list,
> >>>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect of
> >>>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to
> >>>>>>> disempower them.
> >>>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the very
> >>>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not
> >>>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship
> >>>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about
> >>>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something
> along
> >>>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching
> >>>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how the
> >>>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we
> >>>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to
> >>>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free
> >>>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We
> >>>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where
> >>>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That
> isn't
> >>>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and
> >>>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives that
> >>>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy
> >>>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Here, here!
> >>>>>
> >>>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alison
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 2
> >>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000
> >>>> From: sajolida <sajolida at pimienta.org>
> >>>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a
> >>>>      community, circulate training materials and get feedback"
> >>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki
> >>>> Message-ID: <56262B6A.5040204 at pimienta.org>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>
> >>>> Dylan Cooper:
> >>>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing to
> >> divide
> >>>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1] that
> >> have
> >>>>> been accumulated over time.
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this
> list
> >>>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I do
> >>>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of presentations
> >>>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for our
> >>>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:
> >>>>
> >>>>   - Online artifacts (source and HTML):
> >>>>     https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/
> >>>>
> >>>>   - Git repository:
> >>>>     https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 3
> >>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500
> >>>> From: kbaegis <kbaegis at gmail.com>
> >>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13
> >>>> Message-ID: <56265963.7090109 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
> >>>>
> >>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political
> discussion
> >>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the same
> >>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
> >>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on
> agreed
> >>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
> >>>> certain attachment to the idea.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now let's play with an example:
> >>>>
> >>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
> >>>>
> >>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
> >>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is there
> >>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
> >>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
> >>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians
> >>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require no
> >>>> rigor or substance.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me
> that
> >>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
> >>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
> >>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
> >>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
> >>>>
> >>>> What does everyone else think?
> >>>>
> >>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination
> >>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
> >>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Stephen
> >>>>
> >>>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
> >>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we may
> >>>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The principles
> >>>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're
> >>>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a
> very
> >>>>> serious political stance in my view.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political in
> >>>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open and
> >>>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.
> >>>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves "non-political"
> >>>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude them.
> >>>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone
> who
> >>>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>> Jacob
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> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 4
> >>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000
> >>>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <hmco at env.dtu.dk>
> >>>> To: "tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org"
> >>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
> >>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>      <
> >> 6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540 at ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and
> >>>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what
> >>>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that
> >>>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well
> >>>> considered and thoughtful.
> >>>>
> >>>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that
> >>>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.
> >>>>
> >>>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities
> >>>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).
> >>>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand
> >>>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of
> this
> >>>> soon enough.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*
> >>>> as a political statement.  I wish to support others in their right to
> >> read
> >>>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support
> >>>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.
> >>>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my
> >> solidarity
> >>>> with those who do.  (And I believe that the watchers do not have a
> right
> >>>> to know what I read -- another political statement).
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe that it is important to understand the political background
> >>>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the
> >>>> audience.  Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)
> >>>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes
> >>>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,
> >>>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,
> >>>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The
> >>>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts
> >>>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor
> >>>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.
> >>>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that it
> >> is
> >>>> at the present time.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by
> >>>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that
> >>>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to
> >>>>> use it as a starting point.  there may be a set of people who
> >>>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd
> >>>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them.  First though, I'd
> >>>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this
> >>>>> describes their views or desires for this list.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>> Jacob
> >>>> Regards,  Hugo
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 5
> >>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000
> >>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
> >>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics
> >>>> Message-ID: <5626649D.60702 at riseup.net>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>
> >>>> kbaegis:
> >>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political
> discussion
> >>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the
> same
> >>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
> >>>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on
> agreed
> >>>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
> >>>>> certain attachment to the idea.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now let's play with an example:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
> >>>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is
> there
> >>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
> >>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
> >>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of
> politicians
> >>>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require
> no
> >>>>> rigor or substance.
> >>>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally
> >>>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already
> >>>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are
> >>>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political
> >>>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.
> >>>>
> >>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The ISPs?
> >>>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who
> >>>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list will
> >>>> not be rejected.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me
> >> that
> >>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
> >>>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
> >>>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
> >>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
> >>>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met
> within
> >>>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I
> think
> >>>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work
> itself
> >>>> is political.
> >>>>
> >>>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly
> >>>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at
> >>>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly
> >>>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant
> >>>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic
> human
> >>>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a nuisance
> >>>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about power
> >>>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for Tor
> >>>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to
> someone
> >>>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it
> >>>> political".
> >>>>
> >>>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for
> >>>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As
> Desmond
> >>>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice,
> you
> >>>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on
> >>>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will
> not
> >>>> appreciate your neutrality."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> What does everyone else think?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some
> coordination
> >>>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
> >>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Stephen
> >>>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country are
> >>>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you
> >>>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks who
> >>>> are interested in Tor?
> >>>>
> >>>> Alison
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> tor-teachers mailing list
> >>>> tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
> >>>> *******************************************
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>
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> >>
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