[tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics

[Alison Macrina]

Virgil Griffith:
>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies?
>> The police? The ISPs? The advertisers? Eric Schmidt?
>> Let them be excluded.
> 
> I claim that, when teaching Tor in East Asia we emphasized
> pro-whistleblowing (which local govts and police support) over
> pro-democracy, Tor becomes a technology The Man could get behind,
> encourage, and even teach.
> 
> Putting aside questions of whether The Man is liked, given the vast numbers
> of people living in these jurisdictions (not to the mention the chance to
> drastically expand the anonymity set!), I vote, on purely pragmatic
> grounds, to include the police, the ISPs, etc.
> 


Wellllllll, that's why I said "let them be excluded", because what I
meant is that if our political language includes critiques of power and
that gives them sad fee-fees, I really don't care. But I agree that it
can be tactically useful to educate the police about Tor. Not just for
expanding the anonymity set, but making it easier to get support for Tor
in the wider community. Like when you want to run a Tor relay in a small
New Hampshire town, and you don't want the police to get all upset about
it. :)

However, let me be clear -- that should be done PUBLICLY. Closed door
meetings with any of these adversaries is extremely sketchy and is
damaging to the trust of the Tor community.

Also, let me be doubly clear: fuck the police.

ACAB,

Alison


> -V
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 02:03 Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
>> Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the subject
>> line so that we know what they're responding to.
>>
>> kbaegis:
>>> Okay Alison.  Fine.  I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm not
>>> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from TOR.
>>> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of whoever
>>> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest.
>>>
>>> I'll message you directly.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Stephen
>>
>> I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named
>> those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we
>> say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not
>> fallacious. I think we simply disagree.
>>
>> I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should
>> conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not
>> want to exclude politics from the discussion.
>>
>> Alison
>>
>>
>>> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
>>>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to
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>>>>
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>>>> than "Re: Contents of tor-teachers digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)
>>>>    2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)
>>>>    3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)
>>>>    4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)
>>>>    5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000
>>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
>>>> Message-ID: <56265033.6040800 at riseup.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>
>>>> Nathan of Guardian:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to all be
>>>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different backgrounds,
>> and
>>>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is
>>>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into the
>> list,
>>>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect of
>>>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to
>>>>>>> disempower them.
>>>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the very
>>>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not
>>>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship
>>>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about
>>>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something along
>>>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching
>>>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how the
>>>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we
>>>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to
>>>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free
>>>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We
>>>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where
>>>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That isn't
>>>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and
>>>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives that
>>>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy
>>>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Here, here!
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.
>>>>
>>>> Alison
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000
>>>> From: sajolida <sajolida at pimienta.org>
>>>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a
>>>>      community, circulate training materials and get feedback"
>>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki
>>>> Message-ID: <56262B6A.5040204 at pimienta.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>
>>>> Dylan Cooper:
>>>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing to
>> divide
>>>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1] that
>> have
>>>>> been accumulated over time.
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this list
>>>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I do
>>>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of presentations
>>>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for our
>>>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:
>>>>
>>>>   - Online artifacts (source and HTML):
>>>>     https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/
>>>>
>>>>   - Git repository:
>>>>     https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500
>>>> From: kbaegis <kbaegis at gmail.com>
>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13
>>>> Message-ID: <56265963.7090109 at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
>>>>
>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion
>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the same
>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
>>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed
>>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
>>>> certain attachment to the idea.
>>>>
>>>> Now let's play with an example:
>>>>
>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
>>>>
>>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
>>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is there
>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians
>>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require no
>>>> rigor or substance.
>>>>
>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me that
>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
>>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
>>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
>>>>
>>>> What does everyone else think?
>>>>
>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination
>>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Stephen
>>>>
>>>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org wrote:
>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we may
>>>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The principles
>>>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're
>>>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a very
>>>>> serious political stance in my view.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political in
>>>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open and
>>>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.
>>>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves "non-political"
>>>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude them.
>>>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone who
>>>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Jacob
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000
>>>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <hmco at env.dtu.dk>
>>>> To: "tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org"
>>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>      <
>> 6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540 at ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and
>>>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what
>>>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that
>>>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well
>>>> considered and thoughtful.
>>>>
>>>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that
>>>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.
>>>>
>>>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities
>>>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).
>>>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand
>>>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of this
>>>> soon enough.
>>>>
>>>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*
>>>> as a political statement.  I wish to support others in their right to
>> read
>>>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support
>>>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.
>>>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my
>> solidarity
>>>> with those who do.  (And I believe that the watchers do not have a right
>>>> to know what I read -- another political statement).
>>>>
>>>> I believe that it is important to understand the political background
>>>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the
>>>> audience.  Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)
>>>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes
>>>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,
>>>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.
>>>>
>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,
>>>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The
>>>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts
>>>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor
>>>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.
>>>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that it
>> is
>>>> at the present time.
>>>>
>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by
>>>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that
>>>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to
>>>>> use it as a starting point.  there may be a set of people who
>>>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd
>>>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them.  First though, I'd
>>>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this
>>>>> describes their views or desires for this list.
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Jacob
>>>> Regards,  Hugo
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000
>>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics
>>>> Message-ID: <5626649D.60702 at riseup.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>
>>>> kbaegis:
>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political discussion
>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the same
>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
>>>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on agreed
>>>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now let's play with an example:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced the
>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is there
>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference to
>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of politicians
>>>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require no
>>>>> rigor or substance.
>>>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally
>>>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already
>>>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are
>>>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political
>>>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The ISPs?
>>>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who
>>>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list will
>>>> not be rejected.
>>>>
>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me
>> that
>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
>>>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
>>>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
>>>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met within
>>>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I think
>>>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work itself
>>>> is political.
>>>>
>>>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly
>>>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at
>>>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly
>>>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant
>>>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic human
>>>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a nuisance
>>>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about power
>>>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for Tor
>>>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to someone
>>>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it
>>>> political".
>>>>
>>>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for
>>>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As Desmond
>>>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you
>>>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on
>>>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not
>>>> appreciate your neutrality."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> What does everyone else think?
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some coordination
>>>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Stephen
>>>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country are
>>>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you
>>>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks who
>>>> are interested in Tor?
>>>>
>>>> Alison
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
>>>> *******************************************
>>>
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