[tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics

Virgil Griffith i at virgil.gr
Wed Oct 21 01:54:27 UTC 2015 

> I think you have a much, much more optimistic view of the police than I
> do. The US police would never protect whistleblowers.

Totally hear you.  But for what it's worth the United States's Witness
Protection Program is a potential counter-example.  Admittedly they focus
on retaliation from organized crime, but if said organized crime ring grew
to include a few branches of the US govt, this would certainly be within
their purview.  (Full disclosure: I don't actually know anything about the
Witness Protection Program beyond what Wikipedia says.)

-V


On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:21 AM Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net> wrote:

> Virgil Griffith:
> > Fleshing out your analogy. What if said small New Hampshire town's police
> > dept wanted to run a Tor relay and whistle blowing site, and then wanted
> to
> > network with the Tor-teachers community to better teach their citizens
> how
> > to safely use their new whistle-blowing site?
>
> I think you have a much, much more optimistic view of the police than I
> do. The US police would never protect whistleblowers.
>
> Let me put it this way. I teach Tor because I am interested in
> collective liberation. The police are a hindrance to that. I only bring
> them into my work if it is absolutely necessary.
>
> > Do we help the NH police dept? Should they excluded from this space/list?
> > Would they be allowed to attend the Tor meeting to share what they
> learned
> > about teaching Tor to local New Hampshirians?
>
> No one is prohibited from attending meetings. There are probably already
> cops at our meetings. And on this list! But that doesn't mean I'm going
> to be the one to work with them.
>
> >
> > If you think this is outlandish, I don't think it's beyond the pale to
> get
> > see like this done in Singapore.
> >
> > -V
> > On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 06:20 Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Virgil Griffith:
> >>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies?
> >>>> The police? The ISPs? The advertisers? Eric Schmidt?
> >>>> Let them be excluded.
> >>>
> >>> I claim that, when teaching Tor in East Asia we emphasized
> >>> pro-whistleblowing (which local govts and police support) over
> >>> pro-democracy, Tor becomes a technology The Man could get behind,
> >>> encourage, and even teach.
> >>>
> >>> Putting aside questions of whether The Man is liked, given the vast
> >> numbers
> >>> of people living in these jurisdictions (not to the mention the chance
> to
> >>> drastically expand the anonymity set!), I vote, on purely pragmatic
> >>> grounds, to include the police, the ISPs, etc.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Wellllllll, that's why I said "let them be excluded", because what I
> >> meant is that if our political language includes critiques of power and
> >> that gives them sad fee-fees, I really don't care. But I agree that it
> >> can be tactically useful to educate the police about Tor. Not just for
> >> expanding the anonymity set, but making it easier to get support for Tor
> >> in the wider community. Like when you want to run a Tor relay in a small
> >> New Hampshire town, and you don't want the police to get all upset about
> >> it. :)
> >>
> >> However, let me be clear -- that should be done PUBLICLY. Closed door
> >> meetings with any of these adversaries is extremely sketchy and is
> >> damaging to the trust of the Tor community.
> >>
> >> Also, let me be doubly clear: fuck the police.
> >>
> >> ACAB,
> >>
> >> Alison
> >>
> >>
> >>> -V
> >>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 at 02:03 Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just a quick note that it's helpful if digest readers change the
> subject
> >>>> line so that we know what they're responding to.
> >>>>
> >>>> kbaegis:
> >>>>> Okay Alison.  Fine.  I really wasn't looking to pick a fight, so I'm
> >> not
> >>>>> going to address weird arguments about excluding Eric Schmidt from
> TOR.
> >>>>> When hyperbole and extreme arguments rule, you have a tyranny of
> >> whoever
> >>>>> can produce the most extreme rhetoric. It's sophistry at its finest.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll message you directly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Stephen
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not trying to pick a fight, nor was I being hyperbolic. I named
> >>>> those adversaries because they are the ones we make space for when we
> >>>> say that the conversation should not be political. My argument was not
> >>>> fallacious. I think we simply disagree.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't want this conversation to become hostile, so perhaps we should
> >>>> conclude it. I think it's fair to say that folks on this list do not
> >>>> want to exclude politics from the discussion.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alison
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 10/20/15 10:58 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org
> wrote:
> >>>>>> Send tor-teachers mailing list submissions to
> >>>>>>      tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>>>>>
> >> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >>>>>>      tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >>>>>>      tor-teachers-owner at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >>>>>> than "Re: Contents of tor-teachers digest..."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Today's Topics:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>    1. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Alison Macrina)
> >>>>>>    2. Re: Extra Presentations to add to Wiki (sajolida)
> >>>>>>    3. Re: tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13 (kbaegis)
> >>>>>>    4. Re: tor teachers -- politics (Hugo Maxwell Connery)
> >>>>>>    5. Re: tor-teachers - politics (Alison Macrina)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 1
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:31:15 +0000
> >>>>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
> >>>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <56265033.6040800 at riseup.net>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nathan of Guardian:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 20, 2015, at 06:55 AM, Jacob Appelbaum wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Dear Nathan and everyone,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think as a community of teachers and trainers, we'll have to
> all
> >> be
> >>>>>>>>> open to the fact that we are coming from very different
> >> backgrounds,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> working with very different communities. I don't think anyone is
> >>>>>>>>> actively trying to inject their own personal "P" politics into
> the
> >>>> list,
> >>>>>>>>> but I am sure many kinds of politics will come up, as an aspect
> of
> >>>>>>>>> empowering users who are working against a system that seeks to
> >>>>>>>>> disempower them.
> >>>>>>>> I'm totally on board with everything you've said excluding the
> very
> >>>>>>>> last bit here. Forgive me for going down the rabbit hole with you.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We're not working against any system directly. Our efforts are not
> >>>>>>>> mere pushback. Sure, we hope to stop surveillance and censorship
> >>>>>>>> systems from harming Tor users. The crux here isn't just about
> >>>>>>>> protesting "the man" or a specific political party or something
> >> along
> >>>>>>>> those lines. Rather we've built an alternative and we're teaching
> >>>>>>>> people how to utilize it in their lives.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The result is of course political and there is a question of how
> the
> >>>>>>>> new system embodies certain political ideals. In our new system we
> >>>>>>>> build on the radical politics of IP networking, we have a right to
> >>>>>>>> form and hold ideas without interference, we have a right to free
> >>>>>>>> speech and a right to read, we have anonymity of various kinds. We
> >>>>>>>> have this as an intentional outcome of strong cryptography where
> >>>>>>>> everyone is able to run or to use this new infrastructure. That
> >> isn't
> >>>>>>>> a matter of just being against a system, it is about iterating and
> >>>>>>>> changing the current systems, while also providing alternatives
> that
> >>>>>>>> coexist and which are capable of replacing older, less autonomy
> >>>>>>>> respecting, systems which are oppressive.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Here, here!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for this, Nathan and Jake.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Alison
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 2
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:54:18 +0000
> >>>>>> From: sajolida <sajolida at pimienta.org>
> >>>>>> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a
> >>>>>>      community, circulate training materials and get feedback"
> >>>>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Extra Presentations to add to Wiki
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <56262B6A.5040204 at pimienta.org>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dylan Cooper:
> >>>>>>> Figured I'd move this to a new thread to see if anyone is willing
> to
> >>>> divide
> >>>>>>> some of the leftover presentations Alison referenced earlier[1]
> that
> >>>> have
> >>>>>>> been accumulated over time.
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First of all, let my introduce myself as I've been lurking on this
> >> list
> >>>>>> for a while but this is my first post. I'm working on Tails where I
> do
> >>>>>> most of the technical writing and a bit of UX too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not exactly sure why you're mentioning this list of
> presentations
> >>>>>> from Tor but I thought I'd point you to the repository we have for
> our
> >>>>>> presentations about Tails if that can be useful:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - Online artifacts (source and HTML):
> >>>>>>     https://tails.boum.org/contribute/how/promote/material/slides/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - Git repository:
> >>>>>>     https://git-tails.immerda.ch/promotion-material/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 3
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:10:27 -0500
> >>>>>> From: kbaegis <kbaegis at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 13
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <56265963.7090109 at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political
> >> discussion
> >>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the
> same
> >>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't work
> >>>>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on
> >> agreed
> >>>>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
> >>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now let's play with an example:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced
> the
> >>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is
> there
> >>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference
> to
> >>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between a
> >>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of
> politicians
> >>>>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require
> no
> >>>>>> rigor or substance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me
> >> that
> >>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
> >>>>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
> >>>>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this is
> >>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What does everyone else think?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some
> coordination
> >>>>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.  I'd
> >>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Stephen
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 10/20/15 7:00 AM, tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org
> wrote:
> >>>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor, we
> may
> >>>>>>> have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The
> principles
> >>>>>>> behind Tor which are very political in most contexts are why we're
> >>>>>>> never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor free crypto is a
> >> very
> >>>>>>> serious political stance in my view.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by political
> in
> >>>>>>> the context of this mailing list. It seems that we should be open
> and
> >>>>>>> willing to hear this definition and to use it as a starting point.
> >>>>>>> there may be a set of people who consider themselves
> "non-political"
> >>>>>>> when teaching Tor and I'd like to ensure that we don't exclude
> them.
> >>>>>>> First though, I'd really like to hear what that means from someone
> >> who
> >>>>>>> feels this describes their views or desires for this list.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>>> Jacob
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 4
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:17:35 +0000
> >>>>>> From: Hugo Maxwell Connery <hmco at env.dtu.dk>
> >>>>>> To: "tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org"
> >>>>>>      <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor teachers -- politics
> >>>>>> Message-ID:
> >>>>>>      <
> >>>> 6CB05D82CE245B4083BBF3B97E2ED47008F91540 at ait-pex01mbx01.win.dtu.dk>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I support the numerous points that Jacob has made, and
> >>>>>> reiterate the call for the original poster to expand on what
> >>>>>> she or he meant by excluding politics from the list such that
> >>>>>> we can better understand the motivations which may be well
> >>>>>> considered and thoughtful.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I posit that most people who use tor eventually understand that
> >>>>>> there is a political aspect to their use of tor.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One may start using tor because it provides technical capabilities
> >>>>>> which one requires (censorship circumvention, anonymity etc.).
> >>>>>> I suggest that these persons will likely either directly understand
> >>>>>> the political implications of their use of tor, or become aware of
> >> this
> >>>>>> soon enough.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are other persons, myself included, who use tor *specifically*
> >>>>>> as a political statement.  I wish to support others in their right
> to
> >>>> read
> >>>>>> anonymously by joining the "anonymity set", and I wish to support
> >>>>>> those who *need* anonymity due to oppressive political environments.
> >>>>>> I suffer none of these oppressions, but by my actions express my
> >>>> solidarity
> >>>>>> with those who do.  (And I believe that the watchers do not have a
> >> right
> >>>>>> to know what I read -- another political statement).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I believe that it is important to understand the political
> background
> >>>>>> so that, with this knowledge, one can tailor a presentation to the
> >>>>>> audience.  Roger Dingledine made a great presentation (29C3 ?)
> >>>>>> in which he clearly describes the differing approach that he takes
> >>>>>> when talking about tor depending on the audience: students,
> >>>>>> activists, law enforcement, censors etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I feel that if we don't understand the principles behind Tor,
> >>>>>>> we may have trouble teaching and evaluating related systems. The
> >>>>>>> principles behind Tor which are very political in most contexts
> >>>>>>> are why we're never going to see a backdoor inserted. Backdoor
> >>>>>>> free crypto is a very serious political stance in my view.
> >>>>>> I agree, it is a serious political stance, and am rather upset that
> it
> >>>> is
> >>>>>> at the present time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd still like to know what the original poster meant by
> >>>>>>> political in the context of this mailing list. It seems that
> >>>>>>> we should be open and willing to hear this definition and to
> >>>>>>> use it as a starting point.  there may be a set of people who
> >>>>>>> consider themselves "non-political" when teaching Tor and I'd
> >>>>>>> like to ensure that we don't exclude them.  First though, I'd
> >>>>>>> really like to hear what that means from someone who feels this
> >>>>>>> describes their views or desires for this list.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>>> Jacob
> >>>>>> Regards,  Hugo
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 5
> >>>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:58:21 +0000
> >>>>>> From: Alison Macrina <macrina at riseup.net>
> >>>>>> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] tor-teachers - politics
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <5626649D.60702 at riseup.net>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> kbaegis:
> >>>>>>> Thanks for asking what I think Jacob,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My personal stance is that when we start including political
> >> discussion
> >>>>>>> we implicitly begin excluding people.  Rational people, given the
> >> same
> >>>>>>> evidence, can reach the same conclusion.  Opinions simply don't
> work
> >>>>>>> this way.  You can't cite a reference, or make argument based on
> >> agreed
> >>>>>>> upon fact.  Well informed opinions, while based upon fact, imply a
> >>>>>>> certain attachment to the idea.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Now let's play with an example:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "The founders wanted a democracy."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think this is faulty decorum.  Has the above statement advanced
> the
> >>>>>>> discussion in any meaningful way?  If there's a disagreement, is
> >> there
> >>>>>>> any particular idea contained above that I can ask for a reference
> to
> >>>>>>> formally refute or am I stuck arguing about the difference between
> a
> >>>>>>> republic, democracy- and even more basically if a group of
> >> politicians
> >>>>>>> can agree on /anything./  It's easy to state opinions which require
> >> no
> >>>>>>> rigor or substance.
> >>>>>> I'm having a hard time understanding your argument, and I totally
> >>>>>> disagree with the last assertion. The conversation that's already
> >>>>>> happened on this thread shows that the political opinions shared are
> >>>>>> hardly without rigor or substance. Personally, my rigorous political
> >>>>>> praxis is the very thing that led me to Tor in the first place.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Who are you worried about excluding? The spies? The police? The
> ISPs?
> >>>>>> The advertisers? Eric Schmidt? Let them be excluded. Individuals who
> >>>>>> have political disagreements with other individuals on this list
> will
> >>>>>> not be rejected.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think that it's chiefly about exclusion.  It seems sensible to me
> >>>> that
> >>>>>>> TOR benefits from any member- not simply those who subscribe to a
> >>>>>>> certain ideology.  You absolutely need a dominant culture in the
> >>>>>>> development community.  That's sensible.  I would argue that this
> is
> >>>>>>> counterproductive on the teaching front.
> >>>>>> What certain ideology is being espoused here? The people I've met
> >> within
> >>>>>> the Tor community have pretty widely varying political beliefs. I
> >> think
> >>>>>> I can reasonably say that what we *do* agree on is that the work
> >> itself
> >>>>>> is political.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My full-time work is teaching privacy-enhancing technologies, mostly
> >>>>>> across the US. When I teach, I make it clear what is politically at
> >>>>>> stake -- that is, the internet that we all depend on is increasingly
> >>>>>> controlled by a handful of intelligence agencies and giant
> >>>>>> multi-national corporations, and this threatens many of our basic
> >> human
> >>>>>> rights. And for marginalized people, this is more than just a
> nuisance
> >>>>>> -- it's a matter of life and death. This is fundamentally about
> power
> >>>>>> and control vs autonomy. I don't know how to make an argument for
> Tor
> >>>>>> that excludes that, nor would I want to; it feels equivalent to
> >> someone
> >>>>>> saying "let's do something about climate collapse, but not make it
> >>>>>> political".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Echoing what Kenneth said, I am personally wary of any argument for
> >>>>>> political neutrality. There is no such thing as 'apolitical'. As
> >> Desmond
> >>>>>> Tutu famously said, "If you are neutral in situations of injustice,
> >> you
> >>>>>> have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot
> on
> >>>>>> the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will
> >> not
> >>>>>> appreciate your neutrality."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What does everyone else think?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> All of this aside, I was hoping that we could create some
> >> coordination
> >>>>>>> for classes.  Again, I already fly around the country teaching.
> I'd
> >>>>>>> love to be able to teach TOR as well.  I just need students.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Stephen
> >>>>>> I responded to this inline in your earlier message. Which country
> are
> >>>>>> you flying around in? What are you already teaching? Where are you
> >>>>>> teaching? What strategies have you already tried in reaching folks
> who
> >>>>>> are interested in Tor?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Alison
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> tor-teachers mailing list
> >>>>>> tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 14
> >>>>>> *******************************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> tor-teachers mailing list
> >>>>> tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> >>>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>>>
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> >>>> https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>
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