[tor-teachers] tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 10

[Stephen]

Anyone mind if we can stay off of politics? I'd really like to stay
subscribed to this list.

So I happen to be flying around teaching classes already. Does anyone know
if we have any tools for getting people and classes scheduled? I have all
the materials, but no students :-)
On Oct 19, 2015 7:00 AM, <tor-teachers-request at lists.torproject.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Selling Tor outside the anglosphere (Lara)
>    2. Re: Selling Tor outside the anglosphere (Virgil Griffith)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2015 14:50:26 +0000
> From: Lara <lara.tor at emails.veryspeedy.net>
> To: tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Selling Tor outside the anglosphere
> Message-ID: <5623B1B2.2030808 at emails.veryspeedy.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Masayuki Hatta:
> > I agree with Virgil.  Even in Japan, which is basically a democratic
> > country, people tend to tolerate paternalistic intervention by the
>
> Why democracy has to be opposite to paternalism?
>
> Democracy means the people vote. And the election does not even have to
> be universal.
>
> > government, for their own "safety and security".  Thus, surveillance
> > and censorship has some but genuine support.  And many people still
>
> I feel you mean "censorship has genuine support". But it reads as
> "censorship does not have genuine support" denying your statement above
> about Japan being a democracy.
>
> > tend to consider whistleblowing is a kind of "snitch", betrayal and
> > unethical.  In addition, the "failure" of Arab Spring and the rise of
> > ISIS cast some doubt on the value of democracy.  So, selling Tor
>
> When one starts talking about *values* I read totalitarism. What kind of
> doubts do you have against democracy? That people are too dumb to rule
> themselves? Do you feel daesh is a bad example for a democracy? Because
> daesh is a theocracy, pretty much like the papal states or Japan a
> century ago.
>
> > *only* in this context might have very limited appeal outside
>
> I never had the understanding that Tor is sold. More like given away.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 01:50:47 +0000
> From: Virgil Griffith <i at virgil.gr>
> To: "List to be used by Tor teachers and trainers to build a
>         community, circulate training materials and get feedback"
>         <tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org>
> Subject: Re: [tor-teachers] Selling Tor outside the anglosphere
> Message-ID:
>         <CADop2NFWnL=Q6Ow0vMO5RSoGqd=OVhFLCFG1i_aW=
> jwvQpTC6g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> > Why democracy has to be opposite to paternalism?
>
> Not this is how it has to be.  I'm just saying this is how democracy is
> currently in many parts of the Asia Pacific (maybe not Japan?).  And if we
> want to get Tor to the 4/7 of the world's population that lives in Asia,
> there are more receptive paths and less receptive paths for doing so.
>
>
> > When one starts talking about *values* I read totalitarism. What kind of
> > doubts do you have against democracy?
>
> I have no problems with democracy.  I'm just saying this is the "culture on
> the ground". And working through the local culture will be much effective
> than working against it.
>
> If you want an idea where these less-democratic ideas come from, here's a
> gist:
> *
>
> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/lee-kuan-yew-conundrum-democracy-singapore/388955/
> *
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-toh/why-democracy-isnt-for-ev_b_7837366.html
>
>
> > I never had the understanding that Tor is sold. More like given away.
>
> Tor is a swiss-army knife technology that offers different things to
> different people.  And the more people that use Tor for different things
> the better everyone is protected---this is the old adage that anonymity
> requires *diverse company*.  And in this context, "Selling Tor" is
> shorthand for emphasizing the swiss-army blades of Tor that your audience
> likes, and de-emphasizing the blades your audience dislikes.
>
> To be more concrete: "selling Tor" to chinese activists would be selling
> Tor's benefits for human-rights/democracy (which they like) and
> de-emphasizing buying drugs (which they dislike).  On the other hand,
> "selling Tor" to the Singapore authorities would be emphasizing Tor's
> benefits for anti-corruption/whistleblowing (which they like) and
> de-emphasizing democratic movements (which they don't like).
>
> -V
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 10:50 PM Lara <lara.tor at emails.veryspeedy.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Masayuki Hatta:
> > > I agree with Virgil.  Even in Japan, which is basically a democratic
> > > country, people tend to tolerate paternalistic intervention by the
> >
> > Why democracy has to be opposite to paternalism?
> >
> > Democracy means the people vote. And the election does not even have to
> > be universal.
> >
> > > government, for their own "safety and security".  Thus, surveillance
> > > and censorship has some but genuine support.  And many people still
> >
> > I feel you mean "censorship has genuine support". But it reads as
> > "censorship does not have genuine support" denying your statement above
> > about Japan being a democracy.
> >
> > > tend to consider whistleblowing is a kind of "snitch", betrayal and
> > > unethical.  In addition, the "failure" of Arab Spring and the rise of
> > > ISIS cast some doubt on the value of democracy.  So, selling Tor
> >
> > When one starts talking about *values* I read totalitarism. What kind of
> > doubts do you have against democracy? That people are too dumb to rule
> > themselves? Do you feel daesh is a bad example for a democracy? Because
> > daesh is a theocracy, pretty much like the papal states or Japan a
> > century ago.
> >
> > > *only* in this context might have very limited appeal outside
> >
> > I never had the understanding that Tor is sold. More like given away.
> >
> > Cheers
> > _______________________________________________
> > tor-teachers mailing list
> > tor-teachers at lists.torproject.org
> > https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-teachers
> >
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> End of tor-teachers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 10
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