[tor-teachers] Selling Tor outside the anglosphere

[Virgil Griffith]

> Why democracy has to be opposite to paternalism?

Not this is how it has to be.  I'm just saying this is how democracy is
currently in many parts of the Asia Pacific (maybe not Japan?).  And if we
want to get Tor to the 4/7 of the world's population that lives in Asia,
there are more receptive paths and less receptive paths for doing so.


> When one starts talking about *values* I read totalitarism. What kind of
> doubts do you have against democracy?

I have no problems with democracy.  I'm just saying this is the "culture on
the ground". And working through the local culture will be much effective
than working against it.

If you want an idea where these less-democratic ideas come from, here's a
gist:
*
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/lee-kuan-yew-conundrum-democracy-singapore/388955/
*
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-toh/why-democracy-isnt-for-ev_b_7837366.html


> I never had the understanding that Tor is sold. More like given away.

Tor is a swiss-army knife technology that offers different things to
different people.  And the more people that use Tor for different things
the better everyone is protected---this is the old adage that anonymity
requires *diverse company*.  And in this context, "Selling Tor" is
shorthand for emphasizing the swiss-army blades of Tor that your audience
likes, and de-emphasizing the blades your audience dislikes.

To be more concrete: "selling Tor" to chinese activists would be selling
Tor's benefits for human-rights/democracy (which they like) and
de-emphasizing buying drugs (which they dislike).  On the other hand,
"selling Tor" to the Singapore authorities would be emphasizing Tor's
benefits for anti-corruption/whistleblowing (which they like) and
de-emphasizing democratic movements (which they don't like).

-V

On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 10:50 PM Lara <lara.tor at emails.veryspeedy.net>
wrote:

> Masayuki Hatta:
> > I agree with Virgil.  Even in Japan, which is basically a democratic
> > country, people tend to tolerate paternalistic intervention by the
>
> Why democracy has to be opposite to paternalism?
>
> Democracy means the people vote. And the election does not even have to
> be universal.
>
> > government, for their own "safety and security".  Thus, surveillance
> > and censorship has some but genuine support.  And many people still
>
> I feel you mean "censorship has genuine support". But it reads as
> "censorship does not have genuine support" denying your statement above
> about Japan being a democracy.
>
> > tend to consider whistleblowing is a kind of "snitch", betrayal and
> > unethical.  In addition, the "failure" of Arab Spring and the rise of
> > ISIS cast some doubt on the value of democracy.  So, selling Tor
>
> When one starts talking about *values* I read totalitarism. What kind of
> doubts do you have against democracy? That people are too dumb to rule
> themselves? Do you feel daesh is a bad example for a democracy? Because
> daesh is a theocracy, pretty much like the papal states or Japan a
> century ago.
>
> > *only* in this context might have very limited appeal outside
>
> I never had the understanding that Tor is sold. More like given away.
>
> Cheers
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