[tor-talk] tor-talk Digest, Vol 66, Issue 35

Fri Jul 22 15:24:57 UTC 2016

Can i have help dressin?

On Jul 21, 2016 7:59 PM, <tor-talk-request at lists.torproject.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (z9wahqvh)
>    2. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (Allen)
>    3. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (Mirimir)
>    4. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (Zenaan Harkness)
>    5. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (Jaromil)
>    6. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (z9wahqvh)
>    7. Re: Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request (Nick Levinson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:02:38 -0400
> From: z9wahqvh <z9wahqvh at gmail.com>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJoS0DWCq+Md8mPSkSS5Nzy+ByTykth8_YSnN1u+v1YjWc7XwQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > One can request anything.
> >
> >
> > FOIA requests go to the specific governmental agency that have the
> documents in question. You make a FOIA request for FBI documents to the
> FBI. The FBI is required by law to respond (even if the response is
> "glomar").
>
> Tor is not a government agency. You can request anything from it, of
> course, but that would not be a FOIA request, and it is under no legal
> obligation to respond.
>
> If we can argue over something as basic and clear as this, one has to
> wonder about other conversations here (if one didn't already).
>
> - z9
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:03:49 -0400
> From: Allen <allenpmd at gmail.com>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAB7TAMmbM9XJrX31OgPXMCzL-oyHLxFWpKLLZoHw7cvhcDSQXw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> >
> > One can request anything.
> >
>
> For starters, you can't legally request that someone assassinate the
> President, send you child pornography, provide you with weapons of mass
> destruction, etc.  So definitely not anything.  And while you can make some
> requests, you can only make an FOI request of a government agency.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 06:15:54 -0600
> From: Mirimir <mirimir at riseup.net>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID: <5790BCFA.2050504 at riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> On 07/21/2016 06:03 AM, Allen wrote:
> >>
> >> One can request anything.
> >>
> >
> > For starters, you can't legally request that someone assassinate
> > the President, send you child pornography, provide you with weapons
> > of mass destruction, etc.  So definitely not anything.  And while
> > you can make some requests, you can only make an FOI request of a
> > government agency.
>
> I didn't say anything about "legally"?
>
> Maybe he should have put FOIA in scare quotes ;)
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 23:46:17 +1000
> From: Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID: <20160721134617.GB23291 at x220-a02>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 08:03:49AM -0400, Allen wrote:
> > >
> > > One can request anything.
> >
> > For starters, you can't legally request that someone assassinate the
> > President, send you child pornography, provide you with weapons of mass
> > destruction, etc.  So definitely not anything.
>
> So definitely not anything, --legally--!
>
> > And while you can make some requests, you can only make an FOI request
> > of a government agency.
>
> Nope, you can make an FOI request of anyone. You can make an FOIA
> request of any government agency and they have certain statutory (the
> "A"ct part of FOIA) obligation to respond in a certain way.
>
> Tor Inc presents itself as a certain type of entity, via its website and
> other forums of communication, the statements of its employees and also
> the non-refuted statements of the users, volunteers and other supporters
> of tor.
>
> This generates certain expectations in the "members of the community",
> which align with my comprehension of the terms "freedom", "information
> about the entity Tor Inc" and "freedom of information".
>
> How much those in control of Tor Inc release in response to grarpamp's
> "FOI" request, beyond that which they statutorily release to the public
> already, is a matter for them, their courtesy, their sense of proper
> behaviour, their desire to meet the expectations of "the tor community",
> their sense of duty to disclose to this community, their personal
> principles, their need to manage the fallout from recent events, and
> their willingness to demonstrate certain principles which we in the
> community clearly expect, including transparency, honesty, and trust.
>
> Let's be generous in our expectations of those directly inside Tor Inc
> meeting this simple genuine and frank request, and at the same time
> let's be cautious and publicly curious in respect of any "no" responses.
>
> As always, let's assume good faith in general and keep our communication
> as constructive as possible.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:59:54 +0200
> From: Jaromil <jaromil at dyne.org>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID: <20160721135954.GA22254 at reflex>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2016, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>
> > How much those in control of Tor Inc release in response to
> > grarpamp's "FOI" request, beyond that which they statutorily release
> > to the public already, is a matter for them, their courtesy, their
> > sense of proper behaviour, their desire to meet the expectations of
> > "the tor community", their sense of duty to disclose to this
> > community, their personal principles, their need to manage the
> > fallout from recent events, and their willingness to demonstrate
> > certain principles which we in the community clearly expect,
> > including transparency, honesty, and trust.
>
> > Let's be generous in our expectations of those directly inside Tor
> > Inc meeting this simple genuine and frank request, and at the same
> > time let's be cautious and publicly curious in respect of any "no"
> > responses.
>
> > As always, let's assume good faith in general and keep our
> > communication as constructive as possible.
>
> Well put. I just like to add that Tor Inc should not ignore this
> request, not because it having any legal binding of sorts, but simply
> because it comes from someone who is most active in the Tor community
> (with most useful post on this list, according to my analysis) and
> well representative of it. So to say, this can't be called trolling.
>
> And I'm quite confident Tor Inc can provide appropriate information.
>
> I do suspect this request comes in the context of realising what sort
> of communication can be established between the community and Tor Inc,
> considering its director of communications has posted only twice and
> only recently on this list.
>
>
> ciao
>
> --
> ~.,_   Denis Roio aka Jaromil    http://Dyne.org think &do tank
>     "+.   CTO and co-founder      free/open source developers
>       @)   ⚷ crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره
>     @@)  GnuPG: 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10
> (@@@)  opmsg:73a8e097a038d82b 8afb4c05804bda0d 281b3880fbc19b88
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:01:58 -0400
> From: z9wahqvh <z9wahqvh at gmail.com>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJoS0DUBRh+FhbLtPZLppP2ts2Dj5bBUAcoRPXfWN3dZPF8qeQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:46 AM, Zenaan Harkness <zen at freedbms.net> wrote:
>
> > Nope, you can make an FOI request of anyone. You can make an FOIA
> > request of any government agency and they have certain statutory (the
> > "A"ct part of FOIA) obligation to respond in a certain way.
> >
> >
> >
> "I know a term has a generally accepted and even legal meaning, but I'm
> going to use it however I want and demand you use it that way too."
>
> always a great way to start a dialogue.
>
> the principles you express are all correct and I agree with them. why it
> helps to muddy the waters by using a term that means something specific to
> most people  that hear it is beyond me.
>
> -- z9
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 23:59:13 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Nick Levinson <nick_levinson at yahoo.com>
> To: <tor-talk at lists.torproject.org>
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor Project Corporate Document FOI Request
> Message-ID:
>         <1176959224.3456398.1469145553069.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> In U.S. Federal law, the statute is at 5 U.S.C. 552 (choose from 2 URLs:
> https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collectionUScode.action?collectionCode=USCODE&searchPath=Title+5%2FPart+I%2FChapter+5%2FSUBCHAPTER+II&oldPath=Title+5%2FPart+I%2FCHAPTER+5&isCollapsed=true&selectedYearFrom=2014&ycord=969
> or
> https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collectionUScode.action?collectionCode=USCODE&searchPath=Title+5%2FPart+I%2FChapter+5%2FSUBCHAPTER+II&oldPath=Title+5%2FPart+I%2FCHAPTER+5&isCollapsed=true&selectedYearFrom=2014&ycord=969).
> Some corporations are under it but only if they happen to be government
> agencies, defined inclusively; in one case, a parking lot organization was
> ruled to be such an agency because of its funding. But, generally, private
> organizations, including most nonprofits, are outside of section 552's
> reach. Many states have comparable laws, but, likewise, they probably are
> limited to government information. On the other hand, some of what the
> original poster wants are filed with government agencies and may be
> available there under these statutes regardless of what the Tor Project
> wishes.
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of tor-talk Digest, Vol 66, Issue 35
> ****************************************
>