[tor-talk] Tor's reputation problem with pedo, some easy steps the community could take

Mon May 20 05:27:41 UTC 2013

tor-talk-request at lists.torproject.org:
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 17:37:58 -0400
> From: Gregory Disney <gregory.disney at owasp.org>
> To: tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
> Subject: Re: [tor-talk] Tor's reputation problem with pedo, some easy
> 	steps the community could take
> Message-ID:
> 	<CACotuh6fxTWMxmWAU3TTBBgaEms9zbb6NxWmRV3G-zff-EfAJw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> Related to the anarchism comment above.
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 5:37 PM, Gregory Disney <gregory.disney at owasp.org>wrote:
> 
>> > I think Tor Project does follow Mihkal Bakunin principles on Freedom...
>> > From Revolutionary Catechism:
>> > III. Freedom is the absolute right of every adult man and woman to seek no
>> > other sanction for their acts than their own conscience and their own
>> > reason, being responsible first to themselves and then to the society which
>> > they have *voluntarily *accepted.
>> >
>> > IV. It is not true that the freedom of one man is limited by that of other
>> > men. Man is really free to the extent that his freedom, fully acknowledged
>> > and mirrored by the free consent of his fellowmen, finds confirmation and
>> > expansion in their liberty. Man is truly free only among equally free men;
>> > the slavery of even one human being violates humanity and negates the
>> > freedom of all.
>> >
>> > V. The *freedom *of each is therefore realizable only in the equality of
>> > all. The realization of freedom through equality, in principle and in fact,
>> > is *justice.*
>> >
>> > VI. If there is one fundamental principle of human morality, *it is
>> > freedom*. To respect the freedom of your fellowman *is duty; *to love,
>> > help, and serve him is *virtue.*
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 4:59 PM, NoName <antispam06 at sent.at> wrote:
>> >
>>> >> On 17.05.2013 19:50, David Vorick wrote:
>>> >>
>>>> >>> Except I think that in this case Tor is a bit more like a gun than a
>>>> >>> screw
>>>> >>> driver. The good purposes aren't always obvious and the nefarious
>>>> >>> purposes
>>>> >>> are on the forefront of public attention a lot more. It's not a perfect
>>>> >>> analogy but I think you see what I'm getting at.
>>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> It's amusing to see this over and over. And it's only a byproduct of how
>>> >> our minds and culture perceive things. It's always about good ol' times and
>>> >> about how the new things could sake the foundations of society to the point
>>> >> of breaking it. Than it becomes normal and people believe things were
>>> >> always like that.
>>> >>
>>> >> Take the steam engine. It was the devil's work. Mixing fire and water!
>>> >> That was against the creation itself. But it turned out to be quite
>>> >> practical. The Internet in general isn't any different. Only that banks
>>> >> have discovered they can fire half the tellers by launching Internet
>>> >> banking. So it was good business. And their short opening hours became
>>> >> 24/7. Is Internet bad? No! Of course not! No pedo would have the nerve to
>>> >> use the Internet. Why? Because banks and governments do.
>>> >>
>>> >> Was the steam engine used by the bad guys? Of course. Most of the early
>>> >> adopters were probably under the broad classification of bad guys. Because
>>> >> serfs weren't even allowed to travel in some countries. And noble men were
>>> >> not so eager to spend a lot of money on that. But generic bad guys were
>>> >> ready to spend a pretty penny to gain some speed and confort. Guess what!
>>> >> Two centuries after, bad guys still use mass transportation. Most of them.
>>> >>
>>> >> What about the phone? It was hard to get. It was expensive. In a poor
>>> >> neighbourhood was cheaper to send some child running. For longer distances
>>> >> there was the postal service. And for a quick delivery there was the
>>> >> telegraph. And all of them had a good network that could reach places where
>>> >> there was no phone line a century later. But creative bad guys saw the
>>> >> potential and started using it. For that you now have the so called lawful
>>> >> interception. Because most bad guys were using the phone. And they were
>>> >> using it more than the student son calling his momma. Mobile phones? So
>>> >> large they needed a car to make them portable? The G1. The bad guys had
>>> >> those too. And they were using them to coordonate and organise. Gee! The
>>> >> same end of the world scenario stupid press announces for Twitter. Only
>>> >> those radio phones were easy to intercept. Did the bad guys drop them? Heck
>>> >> no! They started using code words.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3d printers? Well, they can make guns! Big guns! That kill innocent
>>> >> people. Have you noticed the dead are always innocent? Even that b****
>>> >> Tatcher was an angel. Same went for bittorrent. Now they are using it to
>>> >> push the distribution of movies to digital cinemas, to infect your PC with
>>> >> paid closed source software. So today not all torrents are criminal. And
>>> >> ISPs don't block bt ports anymore. Wait a bit for the 3d printers. When
>>> >> Lego would distribute its silly toys by making you pay for the plastic too
>>> >> it would be a nice thing abused by some script kiddies.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>  The purpose of Tor is to liberate people from state control and
>>>> >>> censorship.
>>>> >>> Informally, the purpose of Tor is to help people break rules. We support
>>>> >>> Tor because we want oppressive rules to be broken but ultimately it's an
>>>> >>> anarchist tool, and that's something that's not going to sit well with
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> public.
>>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> Don't be such a child!
>>> >>
>>> >> State control? How about ISP control? How about corporate control? How
>>> >> about abusive partners or parents? In those countries called not?free by
>>> >> the corporate media children walk around free. They even have to work and
>>> >> be treated as adults from an early age. Even when the village is next to
>>> >> the minefield they go working in the morning and return home at night. And
>>> >> that's no video game. At the same time, in the free world as the press
>>> >> likes to intelectually masturbate children are under house arrest. They are
>>> >> under total control. Want to chat with your 4th grade colleague to prepare
>>> >> the homework? Want to use that new and wonderful skill of writing? Now get
>>> >> adult supervision! Under 13 or 17 or 18 or 21? Your account can be
>>> >> terminated. Parents install filtering software and want access to social
>>> >> media accounts and passworded diaries. What could seem exagerated for 1984
>>> >> is daily life for some kids in the industrialised world.
>>> >>
>>> >> The purpose of Tor is not to break rules. Is to offer privacy. And guess
>>> >> what? Most private people don't break any rules.
>>> >>
>>> >> Oppresive rules are not broken by Tor. See, Even FBI and DEA are using it.
>>> >>
>>> >> And anarchism is not about that. Good timing with grafitti can be much
>>> >> more valuable.
>>> >>
>>> >> But it's funny that you use the term public, after all that flag waving.
>>> >> Most people I've met use the term public or masses as a way of putting
>>> >> themselves above the crowds.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers!
>>> >>
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> tor-talk mailing list
>>> >> tor-talk at lists.torproject.org
>>> >> https://lists.torproject.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-**talk<https://lists.torproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tor-talk>
>>> >>
>> >
>> >
Hello- I'm Ethan long time tor user first time calling in :D.

I think a better metaphor than a gun here is a bullet proof vest- tor
can provide protection. And also I like Jacob's analogy of surveillance
being like a disease. And he did an excellent job covering this and then
after arguing with cisco guy who was making the same analogy calling
Jake an arms dealer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z4pHGRYhFPE#t=2873s

I see tor as in a sense having the capability of being used for
anarchist dual power and restoring that sense of agency rather than the
gaze of authorities re-inforcing the norm.

Regarding onions and CP: Honestly my intuitive thinking fast response
when I was just browsing random onions with people discussing it and
saying they're raping children I say take it down, WTF! But reflecting I
think when dealing with free speech it's always dangerous to start
making it relative to situation/subject.

Rather we must tackle the social causes that lead to the raping of
children: sociologically child abuse happens when there's spikes in
poverty. I think a lot of our societal ills come out of depravity (I
mean this a purely secular sense; no gods no masters) and through social
justice we can heal not social control.

But if going down that route I think Chris Patti's suggestion may be
better directed towards the people who run the onions individually
rather than the tor project

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