[tor-relays] Discuss. Why not split donations to Tor relay owners?

[Tor Relays]

gus <gus at torproject.org>:

> Hello,
>
> Hi,


> I wrote this advisory:
>
> >There is currently no concrete evidence to confirm that the funds
> >deposited in this wallet will indeed be redirected to the relays.
>
> And your first message to the reiya guy was:
>
> >Me: <informing them that i haven’t received a payout for the
> >last two months>
>
> -*-
>

I see we are on the same page.
I am not interested in running after every site where trustful people may
have donated that (claims to) handle donations for relay operators.


And in the world of cryptocurrencies a donation address has to be stable
because funds can still end up there years later so multiple independent
sites that show up and get abandoned again doesn't sound like a good idea.


> If you're interested on building a project to reward relay operators,
> please write a proposal and follow this process:
>
> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/community/policies/-/blob/master/001-community-relay-operator-process.md
>
> New proposals are welcome for discussion.


Not me but we probably should get there before the real scammers start with
their "job".


> However, sharing a project or
> wallet saying 'donate to my wallet and I will give back to relays
> operators' will be repelled.


Repelling something like this without having a proper replacement
suggestion or talking about this topic at places like this list is no good
solution either unless you want to stop that kind people donate to Tor
relay operators.

Assuming reiya was an honest project and probably a one-man-show then you
discouraged them.
Now acting like "Look at it! I knew what was going to happen!" from your
position as community lead is not totally fair.


> If the project or person is coming with
> good intentions, they will understand our reasons to push back.
>

I think they do.
Let me quote them from above:
"yeah definitely. ive seen pretty much everyone other than gus in that
convo was positive towards the project so maybe someone more trusted can
pick it up."


> Important to note that there were other projects like that in the past
> such as oniontip (https://github.com/DonnchaC/oniontip/).
> And there were some great discussions on *how* to reward relay
> operators:
>
> https://blog.torproject.org/tor-incentives-research-roundup-goldstar-par-braids-lira-tears-and-torcoin/


The last part of that blog post is the most interesting one and describes
the current problems of most cryptocurrencies and other anonymity networks
that make use of tokens pretty well:
"
Another point to make here is that most of these approaches have nothing to
do with giving out or transferring real dollars. The tokens in most of
these schemes are useful only to receive traffic priority in Tor. Will
there be third party markets that form around the exchange of the tokens?
Sure. And they may be speculated. But at the end of the day, the tokens
would still only provide prioritized traffic. Depending on the
configuration of the priority scheduler, the difference between priority
traffic and normal traffic may not be that extreme. It is conceivable that
the tokens would not be worth nearly enough to compensate an operator for
the ISP connection, much less the overhead involved with updating the
software, maintaining the machine, and talking with the ISP
"

I am not proposing to get paied for my relays (although i wouldn't fight
against it).
Speaking about myself, i took a look into oxen/lokinet and nym and decided
that i am not going to participate there.
The financial rewards were not a deciding factor for that decision.

But i want donations that are supposed to go to us relay operators in fact
end up in relay operators pockets.
The torproject is the only party in the chain with enough power and insight
to work towards that goal.
A single relay operator can not do much and can not be everywhere.


It's important to understand that i am not criticizing you for saying that
there is no evidence that funds from projects like reiya will in fact end
up at relay operators.
I have no evidence to believe that they are honest and i have no evidence
to believe that they are dishonest.

I am criticizing you for blocking the approach of someone to organize
donations towards relay operators without having a proper replacement and
without taking about it in public places although the torproject seems to
think about the rewarding of relay operators since at least 2009.


Nine years after the last blog post about rewarding relay operators maybe
it's a good time for another blogpost now?


Thanks!
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