[tor-relays] Call for discussion: turning funding into more exit relays

[Julian Wissmann]

Hi Roger, list
> 
> I want to draw your attention to a thread I've started on the tor-relays
> list:
> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-relays/2012-July/001433.html
> 
> In short, we have a funder who wants to sponsor more and faster Tor
> exits, and we're brainstorming about how to use the money in a way that
> makes the network stronger but also doesn't screw up the "community"
> side of the Tor relay operator community. The first step is collecting
> facts about the current fast Tor exit relays.

Awesome!
> 
> It would be great if you could join the conversation and give us your
> perspective (either on the tor-relays list or in private, whichever
> you prefer). I really want to make sure the current relay operators are
> included in the decisions.
> 
> Also, if you are interested in sharing, it would be great to learn
> (separated by exit relay if you run more than one):
> 
> - What do you currently pay for hosting/bandwidth, and how much bandwidth
> do you get for that?
This differs a lot, please all keep in mind, that we get supported by some of our hosters through cheaper pricing, etc. I'll try to point that out.

nforce.nl
565€ for 100TB outbound traffic on GBit, inbound is free and a second node sponsored by them.
2 Tor nodes running on each

axigy
$199 for unmetered GBit (currently down due to law enforcement). This price is half of their regular rate.

limehost/voxility
104€ for unmetered, shared GBit
Three Tor nodes running on it

Our 100mbit nodes are actually all sponsored. One by psilo.fr, four by defaultroute.net
> 
> - Is it a stable hosting situation? For example, how do they handle
> abuse complaints so far?
We currently only use hosters, that SWIP IPs to us, as we've not made good experiences otherwise. All of our current hosters are very tolerant when it comes to abuses and can be considered stable (not counting in technical difficulties that we've had with one node).
> 
> 
> - Is your hosting situation one where it could make sense for us to
> reimburse your bandwidth costs? (Some people have a deal through their
> employer, friend, etc where they don't pay for hosting.)
For some of our nodes it would make sense, for others not so much. 
The problem we face as a non profit is, that while we get lots of donations not all of them (and especially not the larger ones, as those usually are one-time) are plannable. So essentially this would be a great opportunity for us (assumibg, that this would run uninterrupted for more than a year) to get a larger amount of long term plannable funding.
> 
> - Are you in a position to get more bandwidth if you pay more? At what
> rates? We're most interested in sponsoring >=100mbit relays.
Depends on what you mean. 
In the sense of getting more servers: Yes, definitely. For the sake of diversity it is hard to estimate, though, as nearly every ISP has a different pricing and different reliability. It would probably be hard to find another hoster in the limehost/voxility pricerange, but I think that somewhere in between axigy and nforce is certainly doable for GBit, which would give 2-3 Tor nodes. 
> 
> - Do you have other locations in mind where you would run another exit
> relay if you didn't have to pay for it?
Definitely.
As I've mentioned in my other email, we've got an offer for 10GBit unmetered at 750€, which is kind of sweet spot performance/buck wise and I guess, that it could handle 8-12 Tor nodes performance wise to satisfy the pipe. It would be a large number of high performance nodes run by just one operator, though, so I'm unsure if it really is that great idea :-(

If we're not doing that we'll look into getting at least one other gbit node, though.
> 
> - What else should we be asking here? :)
One question, that immediately came to my mind was: How will this affect other donors?

Only time will tell, I guess and I hope that people will realize, that it is just an additional incentive to get operators to run reliable, fast nodes. 

What about legal stuff?

We haven't had legal problems, so far. We're operating out of germany and have a cool lawyer, but what about others? How do they tackle the legal situation, what about covering the financial burden, if they get in legal trouble over Tor. 
In other words: Do we need a Tor legal fund to go with operator funding or will the community be willing/committed/able to absorb the risks.

Julian

> 
> Thanks!
> --Roger
> """
> 
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