[tor-bugs] #23270 [Core Tor/Tor]: Allow Tor relays to be configured to block selected hidden services, including racist hate sites

[Tor Bug Tracker & Wiki]

#23270: Allow Tor relays to be configured to block selected hidden services,
including racist hate sites
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 Reporter:  cypherpunks                          |          Owner:  (none)
     Type:  enhancement                          |         Status:  closed
 Priority:  Medium                               |      Milestone:  Tor:
                                                 |  unspecified
Component:  Core Tor/Tor                         |        Version:
 Severity:  Normal                               |     Resolution:  invalid
 Keywords:  racism, hate, anti-fascism,          |  Actual Points:
  probably-bad-idea, slippery-slope, but-its-    |
  the-good-kind-of-censorship,                   |
Parent ID:                                       |         Points:
 Reviewer:                                       |        Sponsor:
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Comment (by alison):

 Let me first say that I understand your frustration and desperation about
 this, anon cypherpunk. As a core contributor to Tor Project and an ardent
 anti-fascist, I feel horror and disgust knowing that fascists are using
 software that I care about deeply. Please give us the benefit of the doubt
 as people who are in solidarity in this fight.

 > While it would be great if sites that spew hate couldn't exist at all on
 Tor, I realize that blocking a site entirely is not feasible. What does
 seem feasible to me, however, is giving relay operators the power to
 decide for themselves if they want to be a part of spreading their hateful
 message. It's only when we all work together that we can fight fascism.
 Increasing their downtime, even by just a little, would be a huge help.

 I urge you to consider the unintended consequences that would result from
 this. What would stop fascists from running as many relays as possible and
 then blocking access to antifascist onions? The people who are actually at
 risk for serious censorship, like going to prison for speech, are people
 who oppose fascism. The Department of Justice just requested 1.3 million
 IP addresses from an anti-Trump website. Consider that it may only be a
 matter of time before those sites need to operate from onions. As nickm
 and others have said, if we create conditions where relay operators can be
 compelled to censor onion sites, it will not produce the outcomes that you
 desire.

 >
 > >   3. It only works until the stupid racist bastards change their
 .onion address.  The censoring relays would need to find mirrors and
 automatically add the mirrors to their blacklists. This requires an
 increasingly elaborate and centralized mechanism, which is not what you
 say you want.
 >
 > Again, blocking entirely I know is not feasible, but it does make things
 difficult for them. Perhaps relay operators could subscribe to a service
 which provides a list of known hate-speech websites, which are then
 automatically blocked on their relay (as a HSDir and as an introduction
 point). Either way, it generates work to be done on their end. Every
 little bit helps.

 Again, how do you prevent this from being weaponized against others?

 >
 > >   4. It has potential, in some jurisdictions, to open relay operators
 to legal liability for things that they choose _not_ to censor. (IANAL,
 TINLA)
 >
 > I don't think this is a serious concern, any more than the concern that
 they might be found liable even without such a change being made to Tor.
 In any event, I think that the goal, which is to fight fascism, is more
 important - it is a clear and present danger ''right now'', and without
 it, Tor cannot exist. Fascists will obviously not allow Tor to operate if
 they gain power.

 Well, they're already in power in many places, including in the US. How
 are legal liabilities not a serious concern if fascism is on the rise?
 Fascism operates in part through increased "law and order", that is to say
 increased policing.

 I agree with the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
 Paradox of Tolerance] that open societies condemn themselves by allowing
 space for intolerant views, but while I see ways to address this on a
 human level, I fail to see how you can build technology that only censors
 what you want to see censored. If you can conceive of a way to do this
 that won't be weaponized against the people who fascism seeks to further
 marginalize, then patches welcome.

 >
 > >   5. The directory authorities would need to decide how much a relay
 can censor before it is not suitable for use as an hsdir.  This undoes the
 supposed democracy of the situation, _and_ puts the directory authorities
 into the role of censor-censors. Again, centralization.
 >
 > I don't see anyone blocking more than the small minority of hate speech
 websites on Tor.
 >
 > >   6. When censorship is possible and routine, censorship is far more
 easily compelled.
 >
 > See above.

 Friend, I think this is naive. What makes you think that everyone will
 just decide to participate in this exactly as you want them to?

 >
 > Some censorship is always necessary - such as to prevent the spread of
 ideas (like fascism) that threaten the very existence of institutions that
 are dedicated to free speech (like Tor). Do you think these fascists are
 going to let people run Tor if they got in power?
 >
 > >
 > > Of course, maybe you could try to design a censorship tool that didn't
 have these problems!  But I think you'd find it pretty challenging.  It's
 hard enough to build an anticensorship network.
 > >
 > > I'm also going to edit your post to take out the link, and to reflect
 the feature you are requesting.  If you believe what you say you believe,
 you should not link to nazi sites. They like it when you do that.
 >
 > It's very frustrating to me that you're not seriously considering this,
 as evidenced by the fact that you added the obviously-sarcastic "but-its-
 the-good-kind-of-censorship" tag. Recently Tor project published a
 [https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-project-defends-human-rights-
 racists-oppose blog post] which took a stand against hate speech. It's
 easy to see why - the rise of fascism in America and Europe is real and
 measurable, and has been terrifyingly visible recently. What, then, is Tor
 Project, the new home of these violent cretins, actually going to ''do''
 about it? It's easy to nay-say and turn your nose up at things, but then,
 what real alternative is there? I can't understate the seriousness of this
 - all of us who value freedom and democracy need to take action against
 these fascists ''now'', because once they take power, we certainly won't
 be able to use Tor to organize against them (see: China, for example,
 where Tor usage is only possible through the altruism of Tor bridge
 operators from other countries).

 I think that your concerns have been taken very seriously, and you've
 received serious responses about the technical limitations, as well as
 threat modeling about the unintended consequences. If you still think that
 what you propose is possible without harming people who are already
 marginalized, then you need to explain clearly why you believe that to be
 true.

--
Ticket URL: <https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/23270#comment:20>
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